Gaza

The results so far of Israel's war on Gaza:

- 3 Israeli hostages rescued by the Idf
- 3 Israeli hostages killed by the Idf
- 30.000 Palestinian civilians killed by the Idf
- 2 million Palestinian civilians displaced by the Idf
- 20% of pre war food shipments reaching Gaza
- Hamas still exists

Based on the stated objectives of this war by Israel, this a complete failure. All that blood bath for a zero balance of rescued hostages, and Hamas is still there. The bulk of freed hostages (about 100) have been so by negotiation, not by this war.

Based on the unstated objectives of this war by Israel, this is a success. With Gaza converted to rubble and the West Bank raided on a daily basis, the prospect of annexation of Gaza and the West Bank is more probable by the day.

This was never a hostage rescue mission. From day 1 the Israeli government saw the perfect opportunity to destroy the possibilty of a Palestinian state, and gain territory. Whatever the cost.

Well it sounds like they probably shouldn't have attacked them then,

And I'm not commending or endorsing Israel - but if you're being held hostage by a person holding a bat who keeps telling you "Give me a reason!", and you run up and punch them in the face - what is the retaliation you expect?

Sad to see but that type of tactic is digging ones own grave, on purpose.

> This was never a hostage rescue mission.

Agreed that it doesn't look like that is a main objective. Especially because multiple proposals for hostage exchange were refused by Netanyahu. Perhaps something else is being "rescued" here.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_in_the_Gaza_Strip

@salmon_rushdie said in #2:
> Well it sounds like they probably shouldn't have attacked them then,

Who is 'they'? Did the Palestinian civilians attack Israel? What have the dead Palestinian children done?

This the whole problem, 'they'. Israeli civilians being randomly killed by Hamas because 'they' are occupying the West Bank and letting Gaza rot in open air. Palestinian civilians being randomly killed by the Idf because 'they' massacred Israeli civilians.

In your not-that-clear analogy, I would expect the puncher to be reliated against by the bat-holder, not the random passer-by who just happened to be there, which shows the bat-holder is quite a psycho.

After thousands of civilians killed and half a country destroyed, I am not sure 'they probably sould not have attacked them' is the most appropriate thing to say.

@m011235 said in #4:
>
The innocent of either country never attacked each other

So you're telling me Hamas should've attacked then, knowing that it would incur the wrath of an enemy capable - and fully willing to annihilate your innocents?

Like I said, I'm not condoning, I'm saying be PRACTICAL - taking such an action is obviously going to only get you and the people you care about killed. Sorry the reality of it is too harsh for you to accept.

What I am saying - is there are better strategies than what they chose.

@salmon_rushdie said in #6:
> What I am saying - is there are better strategies than what they chose.

Your replies are so convoluted they need editions and a final clarification on what you even meant on the first place. And you seem to deduce things I never said nor implied.

But I would rather not go down that path of personal comments, which I did not start by the way and are not very interesting.

Back to the subject, as always, wars are seldom fought for the reasons publicly stated. If eliminating Hamas and rescuing the hostages was Israel's objective, then the facts don't add up. Hamas is still there, and almost no hostages have been rescued by military means.

The only tangible result is widespread death and destruction of civilians and civilian infrastructure. This, at the very least, invites some questioning of Israel's motivations and tactics. But that, also, may be too hard to comprehend.

@m011235 said in #7:
> Your replies are so convoluted they need editions and a final clarification on what you even meant on the first place. And you seem to deduce things I never said nor implied.
>
> But I would rather not go down that path of personal comments, which I did not start by the way and are not very interesting.
>
> Back to the subject, as always, wars are seldom fought for the reasons publicly stated. If eliminating Hamas and rescuing the hostages was Israel's objective, then the facts don't add up. Hamas is still there, and almost no hostages have been rescued by military means.
>
> The only tangible result is widespread death and destruction of civilians and civilian infrastructure. This, at the very least, invites some questioning of Israel's motivations and tactics. But that, also, may be too hard to comprehend.
I only added that because you seemed like you missed the point of what I was saying entirely.

I didn't even comment on any of that - I was just saying, that
A) Hamas knew Israel would retaliate disproportionately
B) They decided to attack anyway
C)That doesn't Justify Israel's response
D) But it also doesn't absolve Hamas of responsibility of taking an action that they absolutely knew would gravely endanger Palestinians - because they knew how Israel would react.

@m011235 said in #1:
> From day 1 the Israeli government saw the perfect opportunity to destroy the possibilty of a Palestinian state, and gain territory. Whatever the cost.

Actually, "from day -2.500" or so. The usual "Hamas attacked, Israel retaliated" ignores (as usual, it's called "peace" when there are no Israeli victims) the pre-oct-7 kidnapping and killings of Palestinians *every single day* in the Occupied Territories by IDF and govt. tolerated and protected settlers, not to mention other violations of international humanitarian law.

Just to taste the waters long before october 7:

UN, december 2022:
"150 Palestinians have been killed in the occupied West Bank by Israeli forces so far this year, including 33 children. In addition, a boy was killed by either Israeli forces or Israeli settlers who were firing side-by-side."

CNN, june 2023:
"The United Nations human rights chief and the European Union have expressed alarm over ongoing violence in the occupied West Bank, and over attacks by settlers on Palestinian villagers. But a prominent member of the government led by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has called for illegal settlers’ outposts to be expanded and turned into full settlements."

The Times of Israel, june 2023:
Israel Defense Forces chief Lt. Gen. Herzi Halevi, Shin Bet head Ronen Bar, and Police Commissioner Kobi Shabtai in a joint statement on Saturday strongly condemned an ongoing series of settler attacks on Palestinians in the West Bank, branding them as "nationalist terrorism in the full sense of the term."
"This violence increases Palestinian terror, harms the State of Israel and the international legitimacy of the security forces to fight Palestinian terror, and diverts the security forces from their main mission against Palestinian terror,” the three senior officials said."

Members of government replied ‘the leftist deep-state agenda has infiltrated the Shin Bet’.

AP, august 2023:
"Israel is holding over 1,200 detainees —nearly all of them Palestinians— without charge or trial, the highest number in over three decades, an Israeli human rights group said Tuesday.
The detainees, 99% of whom are Palestinians, are held under Israel’s policy of "administrative detention," without trial and under allegations that Israeli authorities keep secret."

It is often said "right of self-defence" and "how would USA react if Mexico killed and kidnapped scores of US citizens?". Well, it seems Palestinians are the only ones who can't legitimally retaliate against killings and kidnappings, and the only ones denied the right to self-defence.

Nobody said they didn't have the right to self-defense, but killing & abducting civilians isn't self-defense - targeting the IDF would be.

Tit-for-tat shit isn't going to solve this crisis,

Diplomacy will, knowing how and when to negotiate when you are at a very severe disadvantage... Extremely challenging - yes - but aggression only makes it worse in these circumstances.

Like, really you're not going to fight your way out of it in the current circuimstances. So you have to explore other options.

"Hamas and the allied Islamic Jihad have rejected an Egyptian proposal that they relinquish power in the Gaza Strip in return for a permanent ceasefire"

www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-islamic-jihad-reject-giving-up-power-return-permanent-ceasefire-egyptian-2023-12-25/