I have to admit that I am struggling with the technique of winning with a queen and king versus a rook and king. I know you have to separate the rook and king and then win the rook with a double attack, but I just can't get it. Is there a book or a website that shows this? Its driving me nuts! ;-)
I doubt that anyone of us pedestrians would win against a tb. Usually GMs struggle. Kramnik once said in an interview he isn‘t sure to win.
Amongst humans it is easy. They don’t separate R and K - yet an engine does and then it becomes hard... there is a complicated and counterintuitive 7-move maneuver which guarantees progress, described by uhm Euwe?!
PS: I don’t even try - I know that I would fail.
Amongst humans it is easy. They don’t separate R and K - yet an engine does and then it becomes hard... there is a complicated and counterintuitive 7-move maneuver which guarantees progress, described by uhm Euwe?!
PS: I don’t even try - I know that I would fail.
I have been practicing/researching this one on and off for two years now, and I'm not even close to getting it perfect. Playing it against a Tablebase is too hard, but you should familiarize yourself with some concepts, for example how to set up the toughest defence when you are the side with the rook.
Forget it.
Focus on tactics, analyzing your games, and developing an opening repertoire.
Endgame-wise you need to focus on endgames that actually happen all the time. King and Pawn VS king, breakthroughs, and king rook and pawn VS king and rook. Stuff like that.
Focus on tactics, analyzing your games, and developing an opening repertoire.
Endgame-wise you need to focus on endgames that actually happen all the time. King and Pawn VS king, breakthroughs, and king rook and pawn VS king and rook. Stuff like that.
Like others have mentioned, usually humans with the rook will eventually make a mistake, so just try and bring the king closer and look for forks if the rook keeps moving.
It's super hard there are few techniques you can learn to try and avoid the fifty move draw( because we don't play it perfectly. But before I start I want to reiterate that people don't usually defend it well.
"The battering ram" - the head of the battering ram is your king and the queen is one diagonal behind it, when the opponents king and rook are close together the battering ram has a tendency to create opportunites to push the opponent back. try it out.
The barrier breaker. If the weaker side actually has a clue about this ending they may set up a third rank defense where there rook parks itself on the third and never lets your king in. Breaking this defence is reasonably easy to explain but hard to execute. you control three squares along the third with your king on the side of the board with the opponents king. on the other side you control three squares with your queen( your queen want's to be on the side with less pieces in the way so she is more flexible when chosing checks) you have to time your control of those six squares for when if the blacks rook remains in the third , it can be captured with a series of checks. This tactically forces the rook off the third when you can check the opponent king ( an other key reason you need your king close to his so when you check him he is forced backwards) and advance your king to the third rank completely breaking the barrier. Before advancing to the third with your king you may have to give an extra check or two depending where the rook ran away too. Because the queen check also need to diagonally cover a long range rook checking square so your king cannot be harassed off of the space you just gained.
Also if your not testing against stockfish a tablebase or both, but in game- Whenever the rook moves far away from the king have look if you can win it with a series of checks.
The Philidor win can be trained and memorized and mastered in a much more reasonable amount of time.
If you fiddle with the battering ram against normal defense and breaking the third against good defense you just might get to a philidor win .
Your time might be better spent on other things. It could become a hobby horse position for a year or two. If you haven't done so, mastering the material in something like pandolfini;s endgame course will probably bear more fruit.
You can even get half decent at pure endgames just by studying pawn , rook and same colored bishop endgames.
Finally many endgames are less strategic than we are lead to believe by the experts, most endgame authorities are pretty good at tactics and calculation and may see as technique what we see as vision and tactics. There is a reason why shirov and naka are dangerous practical endgame players, they calculate. Training calculation and board vision will improve your endgame.
"The battering ram" - the head of the battering ram is your king and the queen is one diagonal behind it, when the opponents king and rook are close together the battering ram has a tendency to create opportunites to push the opponent back. try it out.
The barrier breaker. If the weaker side actually has a clue about this ending they may set up a third rank defense where there rook parks itself on the third and never lets your king in. Breaking this defence is reasonably easy to explain but hard to execute. you control three squares along the third with your king on the side of the board with the opponents king. on the other side you control three squares with your queen( your queen want's to be on the side with less pieces in the way so she is more flexible when chosing checks) you have to time your control of those six squares for when if the blacks rook remains in the third , it can be captured with a series of checks. This tactically forces the rook off the third when you can check the opponent king ( an other key reason you need your king close to his so when you check him he is forced backwards) and advance your king to the third rank completely breaking the barrier. Before advancing to the third with your king you may have to give an extra check or two depending where the rook ran away too. Because the queen check also need to diagonally cover a long range rook checking square so your king cannot be harassed off of the space you just gained.
Also if your not testing against stockfish a tablebase or both, but in game- Whenever the rook moves far away from the king have look if you can win it with a series of checks.
The Philidor win can be trained and memorized and mastered in a much more reasonable amount of time.
If you fiddle with the battering ram against normal defense and breaking the third against good defense you just might get to a philidor win .
Your time might be better spent on other things. It could become a hobby horse position for a year or two. If you haven't done so, mastering the material in something like pandolfini;s endgame course will probably bear more fruit.
You can even get half decent at pure endgames just by studying pawn , rook and same colored bishop endgames.
Finally many endgames are less strategic than we are lead to believe by the experts, most endgame authorities are pretty good at tactics and calculation and may see as technique what we see as vision and tactics. There is a reason why shirov and naka are dangerous practical endgame players, they calculate. Training calculation and board vision will improve your endgame.
Nunn's Pawnless Endgames has the most complete coverage. Averbach and Dvoretsky and Lambrecht and Mueller all also cover it.
I have practised it a lot, and I can do it after (!) you get the king and rook in the corner. It is a pattern that makes sense.
What I absolutely cannot do, after hundreds of attempts, is to drive the rook and king into the corner. The "third rank" defense and the "second rank" defense bamboozle me.
I think it is harder than mate with a knight and bishop, which I was able to finally learn.
I have practised it a lot, and I can do it after (!) you get the king and rook in the corner. It is a pattern that makes sense.
What I absolutely cannot do, after hundreds of attempts, is to drive the rook and king into the corner. The "third rank" defense and the "second rank" defense bamboozle me.
I think it is harder than mate with a knight and bishop, which I was able to finally learn.
Your very right on it being harder than Bishop and knight checkmate. It's incredibly hard I gave up on being able to beat stockfish within 50 moves despite knowing a few methods. you can actually memorize B and N checkmate let's say it has 9 useful patterns(maybe more but they get a bit redundant once you can build barriers) . The Q v R will have 100 patterns(much more but got to draw a line in the sand) but 80 of them seem random and to find them over the board against perfect defense is beyond me .You might have to solve 8 2800 tacical puzzles in a row. I love intermediate endgames maybe rated 2000 or 2100 ones. But this one could be 2700-2800 in difficulty against perfect defense .
The thing about B and knight is it's plenty hard until you get the hang of it . I've seen titled players muck it up in time trouble.they probably hadn't practised it in a long time. I havn't done a B and K checkmate in almost two years , it rarely comes up over the board.
The thing about B and knight is it's plenty hard until you get the hang of it . I've seen titled players muck it up in time trouble.they probably hadn't practised it in a long time. I havn't done a B and K checkmate in almost two years , it rarely comes up over the board.
Thanks for all your thoughtful and helpful replies. After about 4 hours this morning I finally got it but I forgot to record my solution! arrrrrggggggg!
Let me agree with @comfortable on some things: In practice at my level, defense is weak, so often you can win by opponent's mistakes. (Against computer, nigh on to impossible, for me. The machine knows how to frustrate progress.)
Breaking down the third rank is the key. The explanation looks good in words, but on the board, it's a rascal.
Nunn says there is "one counter-intuitive move." For him. I can never find it.
In the final stage, you must be alert for stalemate by the defense. Easy to miss while you are maneuvering.
There is an intersection square of defense's king and rook, which must be covered by your king and queen, to avoid an inside punch check.
When the rook moves away from its king, calculate, calculate. There is often a series of checks that lets you pick up the rook by a final diagonal move of your queen. The queen needs to check from greater distances, until bingo.
Breaking down the third rank is the key. The explanation looks good in words, but on the board, it's a rascal.
Nunn says there is "one counter-intuitive move." For him. I can never find it.
In the final stage, you must be alert for stalemate by the defense. Easy to miss while you are maneuvering.
There is an intersection square of defense's king and rook, which must be covered by your king and queen, to avoid an inside punch check.
When the rook moves away from its king, calculate, calculate. There is often a series of checks that lets you pick up the rook by a final diagonal move of your queen. The queen needs to check from greater distances, until bingo.
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